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DynamicPageList3 Manual talk:Feedback (view source)
Revision as of 21:23, 25 April 2022
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::: I can do but if I understand correctly, as you are not an interface administrator now, I should request for removing to another admin? (Just now CA is the only member of admin) Thank you, anyway! [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 13:08, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
:::: Yes, requests to change things should go to CA, I'd hope he'd take this discussion into account when making the changes, as some of what you have reqeusted now needs to stay in Common.css per the reasons below.
::I’ll just add a note that if VE is only for ease of short term revamping, I’d be completely fine to turn it on again temporarily then turn it off later when we’re mostly done. I just don’t love the idea of adding a layer of viewing/testing complication or swapping for the long-term if that makes sense? I have examples preloading content in source edit, users would have to know how to switch, though with preview right there I’m not sure why they would want/need to? I’m not a big VE user though, only using it for complex tables with multiple colspan and rowspans, so maybe there’s some essential component to it that I’m just not seeing at current? Perhaps you can help me to better understand why you think it is essential and if you see that as a short or long term need? Some of our users can’t even figure out how to switch between VE and source edit, or they use VE so much elsewhere that they cant grasp working with wikitext for tables etc, though that is very necessary for understanding a lot of DPL3 examples. [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 08:54, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
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[[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]], DPL parameters are now showing on all pages as escaped table syntax and have stopped working. Is that because a template style was added to that template without the corresponding style page it refers to being created? Or any idea what else might cause this to happen? It worked until the change to its template being done (its history showed just the template style being added, so I'm trying to figure out why it had this effect). Thanks [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 08:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:I have reverted that template for now, until the solution is found, so the display isn't broken for every page it is used on. Please feel free to restore that edit if a solution is found. [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 08:39, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:: Apologies for the incident. I will retry carefully the next time. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 09:11, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:: Could it be that the style is in the wrong namespace? I see one located in the Template NS [[Template:DPL_parameter/styles.css]] --[[User:Soukupmi|Soukupmi]] ([[User talk:Soukupmi|talk]]) 09:14, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::: No worries Lens0021, stuff happens. I'm not sure Soukupmi, I'd have to check the manual for that extension another day, I'm not familiar at all with it (and for now, it is bedtime for me so I can't look). Have fun folks! [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 09:30, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
: What exactly is the reason for having a different css anyway? TBH I was really confused by the sudden use of a template around a working example (yeah, I lurk around here because I want to learn more about the usages of DPL). And just for the reason of looks complicating an example unnecessarily with a template, that an unknown user looking for help with #dplmatrix would now think they have to use to get it to work.<br>For me examples should have a working code that I can easily understand and copy-paste (with adaptions to my need). No fancy stylesheets - if I want those, I'll do it on my wiki. KISS is the way to keep it, especially for examples, even more on a topic as complex as DPL.<br>Thanks, FrozenPlum, for making it clear again, and please, Lens0021, don't make them confusing - DPL is confusing me enough. --[[User:Soukupmi|Soukupmi]] ([[User talk:Soukupmi|talk]]) 09:54, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::: Fresh eyes helped me to see the reason this broke: Table syntax must always begin on a new line to be correctly recognized and rendered, and apparently when a template styles reference is inserted at the beginning of a line, MediaWiki tables also seem to see it and not provide proper table syntax. In these cases either a new line is needed, or template styles inserted elsewhere. I undid my "undo" and added the line there, purged the cache for a page it's used on, and it now correctly displays, and enables template style use. Though I will say that this template is used in some examples (out of necessity), and template styles does then complicate users inspecting it (when the examples it is used in are already quite complex and thus should remain free of added complexity). For that reason, I will probably end up removing template styles from that example when I finish refining its description and linking to its template (I had done an initial few stabs at the example, but didn't finish and left it to finish later). If involved/used in an example, please don't include template styles for the reasons mentioned above and below. I left it for now so it could be seen that temlpate styles before a table interferes with the table rendering correctly (this was good learning for me also). [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 23:06, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:: [[User:Soukupmi|@Soukupmi]] What I tried is moving styles from MediaWiki:Common.css to the /styles.css subpages. The appearance changes are not intended. I am sorry for confusing you. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 10:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::: I'm not talking about appearance. You literally wrapped the example into a template - for style reasons solely. People who aren't very familiar with how templates work (yes, I've met a few) could now think that they have to do it like this.<br>Also - I don't see any reason why you would want to move the styles to a different stylesheet - maybe you can enlighten me there. --[[User:Soukupmi|Soukupmi]] ([[User talk:Soukupmi|talk]]) 15:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::: [[User:Soukupmi|@Soukupmi]]: My answer to the first problem: I know some examples are still wrapped by tables. It is hard to expect that people who are not familiar with template syntax are familiar with table syntax. I think the fact that the manual shows raw wikitext can prevent users from having to view the source.<br>Second: The styles defined in MediaWiki:Common.css have a very massive effect, making it hard to expect the result of a modification and making it hard to edit the styles. It also decreases the performance of the whole wiki site. Readability also can be a reason. [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:TemplateStyles#What_problems_does_it_solve? https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:TemplateStyles#What_problems_does_it_solve?] can give more detailed backgrounds to you. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 16:48, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
::::: I can see now that the example styles need to stay in Common.css so as not to complicate and create problems with the examples and the learning. I'm sorry, Lens, other styles used in the manual can be in template styles, that's fine, but making all into template styles is not more important than the needs of people learning to use the extension (and not complicating examples unnecessarily for them as stated and explained numerous times above). I understand where you're coming from, though and in other situations I'd agree with you, this situation requires a different approach due to the subject matter and the needs of the resource. It goes against instructional/learning best practice to obfuscate examples in any way, this would do that (and did do that). Not being able to edit example styles will not be unexpected to users given all three DPL manuals had the styles in Common.css, the [https://followthescore.org/dpldemo/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css full original manual], the [https://help.fandom.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css gamepedia/fandom manual], and the [https://de.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css German Manual Hilfe:DynamicPageList]). It is more disruptive to have examples and content that can't be easily understood, than it is to have a handful of styles locked down (I'd find it far more disruptive if the manual styles '''were''' changed randomly when visiting the manual, and if the examples were complicated by extra stuff--which they were on the fandom site and again, is the stated solid reasoning for not doing that here).
::::: I need to be frank here, I'm finding the insistence to change everything I've been doing, as I've been doing it, to be very disruptive; as well as essentially forcing me to explain myself at every step, hindering my efforts and ability to finish the project I proposed, and that I told CA I would get established for him (and that he accepted as such). Especially after asking for patience, time, and understanding to get things solid, giving my unique neurological challenges (I am repeatedly not being afforded these accommodations, despite explaining my need for them and the nature of my challenges--that's not okay). The changes proposed have not been well-thought-out as to understand what it is I'm doing and why. They have not also been well thought out towards maintenance burden (or the utility of what I've proposed for the audiences it was proposed for being more important than other factors); nor towards instructional best practice, or towards the importance of the learning over the ability for individual users to control things of much lesser importance. Most new wikis are granted a period of understanding, that time is needed to get a coherent direction set and content fleshed out. I am not being granted that (even after stating why I especially need it), and I'm not sure why. I did not make the decisions I made lightly, I am fully trained in EdTech and Instructional design, even though I may have severe limitations based on my neuro-condition (my training is why I offered to CA to do this, he accepted--I'm fulfilling that). I explained my logic and reasoning soundly at every turn. I'd appreciate if I wasn't being pressed to continue to re-explain the same things in different ways after already having done so. If I was given the accommodations I need, I'd continue working here and finish what I proposed, instead I find myself essentially feeling forced to work off-site (to lessen such disruption) and move content back and forth later instead. I should not have to do that, I realized this morning that having to do that was essentially letting myself be "running off" from a project I proposed to CA and stated I'd do (which again, he accepted). Things are being changed in the meantime so that my efforts are nullified... So, I'm not going anywhere, I will continue to work here and fulfill my mandate. Please try to better understand the larger picture, the teaching/learning context, and my motivations and insights as an instructional designer, before making repeated requests, suggestions, or changes that can derail those efforts. I also feel it is inappropriate to seek to impose personal preferences on a wiki over the needs of average users and the goal set for the resource. Also, I'll point out that if you have preferences for styles or javacript that differ from what exists, you can apply these in your user styles or JS.
:::::: Could I take a time to understand your comment? I am using translators whenever I met unknown phrases, I need more time to read comments several times, to make sure what I understand is correct. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 23:47, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::::: After quick reading, I see now that I have made pressure on you. I feel responsible and I apologize for what I did and do. I will take a break to review my actions and figure out what I had to do instead. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 00:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
::::: And yes, some examples are in tables, you make a good point that these must be separated out (I will do that and have already been doing that for some, but again I need to be given time to actually finish doing that). Also, I'd be a no-vote, again (already explained why), for enabling VE and structured discussions on talk pages because it is common for people to ask questions involving the use of DPL3 in talk pages, and to have those questions answered in-kind, with working examples '''[https://followthescore.org/dpldemo/index.php?title=DPL_talk:Manual_-_DPL_parameters:_Controlling_output_format as can be clearly observed here]'''. Such also requires working in source, this too was part of the plan and my decision for disabling VE.[[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 21:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
:::::: Thank you for letting me know you are using translate, that helps me to understand better. Yes, I have felt much pressure, that pressure caused me to resign my admin access and work elsewhere to avoid questions and requests (so that I can get work on pages done). When I asked you to be patient, what I meant was: please give me time to get the articles well written and examples working before making more questions, requests, suggestions, or making more changes (those things that can wait, they will be much easier to discuss/do/change '''after''' my initial work is done). Doing wiki things is already very hard for me because of my brain disease. When anyone adds more problems, questions, changes, or requests to that, it makes editing almost impossible for me. These things causes me to forget what I was doing often, or make it take 10 times longer to get things done. I am not well enough (in health) to manage with that added difficulty, it makes me suffer needlessly (stress, distractions, and interruptions all worsen my brain problems). When someone asks you to be patient, they usually expect to be left alone to finish their tasks before being asking to do/answer/change more, or do things differently (I expected to be left alone to finish my tasks). I have very little time to feel well each day and edit because of my brain disease, I need to use that small amount of time to fix the pages, I should not need to also reply to questions, requests, and check if your changes or suggestions make a problem for my plan or edits. I can edit pages, or I can respond to questions/suggestions/changes, but I can't do all of it, I need to edit the pages. Instead, please wait, please give me time to get the articles well written and examples working before making more questions, requests, suggestions, or before doing more changes that might create problems for my work (those things that can wait, they are easier after my initial work is done). [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 06:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
@[[User:Lens0021]] I can see your point - thanks for the link and explanation. Makes sense to do this for some parts of the wiki for sure. Yet I also see that you are trying to force a nice style (or nice way of applying and editing styles) to a half full wiki.<br>I was taught by years of programming that first comes the content and ''then'' the "making it nice".<br>When I go to a help page I don't care about what it looks like - important for me is readability and that I can understand it. (and maybe that it doesn't burn my eyes out). FrozenPlum sounds like she knows what she's doing and - even more important - '''why''', so I'm confident that it will be readable after she's done with it. And I don't expect much more than this from a help-page-wiki, which I hope this will be in the end. Let's give her the time she needs to finish it, shall we? --[[User:Soukupmi|Soukupmi]] ([[User talk:Soukupmi|talk]]) 22:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
''(This comment is hidden by lens0021)'' [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 23:47, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
: I agree with your point. I had to consider the stage this wiki is on and which one is more important. Thank you. [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] ([[User talk:Lens0021|talk]]) 00:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
:Yes, content, writing and examples done first, then styles and formatting later, please. I didn't know there would be a problem using template styles (I don't use it). I thought you'd do it for manual parts like navigation, keys, DPL parameter first (I can't think of any good reason why users should be able to change example styles, honestly, that is not a necessity). Also, I apologize, I thought when you got to the examples, if template styles caused a problem that would complicate those examples, I thought you would know to stop there. I can clearly see now that template styles are impractical and problematic to be used on examples because of how the examples are done--this is exactly the reason I wanted questions, suggestions and changes to wait until '''after I was done fixing all the other content'''--the problem that happened explains perfectly ''why'' this stuff needs to wait; because all of the questions/requests and suggestions made will be easy to answer (or have been already answered) by the time I'm done that work. So, I'll say it again, please give me time to get the articles well written and examples working before making more questions/requests/suggestions/changes (those things that can wait, they will also be much easier to see/understand, discuss, do, and change '''''after''''' my initial work is done, but not before). Thanks for your understanding and willingness to wait until that's done, it is much appreciated. [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 06:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
::Thanks to you both! I agree the order of doing is important. I will try not to take a long time to get the changes done, but that being said I do need to do it in small chunks over time, I apologize in advance for this inconvenience. PS. Thanks for fixing the edit conflict, Soukupmi (I hadn't noticed it). [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 08:12, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
==Content Items that will need doing==
There are some items that need doing in the content, that would be very helpful to have (if '''anyone''' feels like doing it, if not, we'll/I'll get to it eventually). This can serve as a reminder/checklist for later, too:
* If there are defaults for anything (which there should be for many things) they need:
:* <code><nowiki> — ('''default''' is false)</nowiki></code> for this: — ('''default''' is false)
:* Or <code><nowiki> — ('''default''')</nowiki></code> for this: — ('''default'''), (if the option at hand is the default).
: We can refer [https://github.com/Universal-Omega/DynamicPageList3/blob/da27636f6b294f64e379c1fca96cbee0bbd83bc9/includes/ParametersData.php#L219 this] that [[User:Lens0021|Lens0021]] linked, since that may have the rest of the missing defaults.
* Variable names should be in code blocks, and if not in close proximity to an already linked repeat or its own page section. These should also generally have the variable linked using the "DPL" template: <code><nowiki><code>{{DPL|%PAGE%}}</code></nowiki></code>
* Parameter names should also be in code blocks, and, if not in close proximity to its own section or another already linked repeat, should be also linked: <code><nowiki><code>{{DPL|title}}</code></nowiki></code>. The only thing to keep an eye out for is, if a ''value'' is specified, that value should be in italics (there are a number of places this is not yet the case), e.g., <code>addcontribution=true</code> should be <code>addcontribution=''true''</code>, though of course in templates such as <code><nowiki>{{DPL parameter}}</nowiki></code>, the equals characters needs to be <code><nowiki>{{=}}</nowiki></code> or use <code><nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki></code>.
* We do need to check the parameter descriptions (thanks Lens0021 for pointing this out) against [https://github.com/Universal-Omega/DynamicPageList3/blob/da27636f6b294f64e379c1fca96cbee0bbd83bc9/includes/ParametersData.php#L219 the descriptions in the parameters.php] to see if they still align, if there's missing/useful information that needs adding, or if functions changed; though, we can't just take that wording as-is (there's a license difference--again thanks to Lens0021 for noticing that), we need to describe that behavior in our own (different) wording, which shouldn't be a problem (I may tweak this wording a bit as it relates to other paramters).
* If there are concepts that are moderate to advanced MediaWiki knowledge ("sortkey" and magic words were examples I linked) would be nice to link these to the relevant MediaWiki manual page for easy understanding/reading.
* Anywhere we're referring to the DPL3 extension in the text (not in syntax or examples of course), ideally these can be swapped from "DPL" to "DPL3" (eventually this may also aid SEO, when it's time to look at such, later on).
* There may need to be a review for minor fixes, typos, spacing adjustments for readability; I'm making sure headings, syntax lines, examples, have the equivalent of 2 lines of space between each to increase scanning ability and readability (which is necessary from teaching/learning perspective, and also makes page editing far easier spotting things on longer pages).
* When the examples are more complete (apologies, I'm cross-referencing and testing examples from multiple pages when doing this and filing bug reports, so it's taking some time, especially for the complex ones) after that, they'll need to be reviewed/checked for any missing information and to make sure they're clear and concise. I may need a few run-throughs to refine some of these, and you guys will likely spot errors/problems I missed (please feel free to just fix these, I can look at refining later if there needs to be a writing style tweak.
* I forgot to add [[Other parameters]] into the sidebar below [[Controlling output volume]], that'll need to get added later (this is more of a reminder for a later list to discuss). H4's also need a color (maybe deep blue or the MH logo dark brown) to set them apart from bold text (this has always annoyed me, that they'd make the default H4 style for vector to perfectly match bold text. A heading should never blend in with body text, that makes '''zero''' sense, probably they wanted to avoid imposing a color on people, so left it for customization). For now, I have an (ugly and temporary) <nowiki>{{hr}}</nowiki> style to separate these, it will need to be fixed/replaced later, when H4 is fixed (for now I need visual separation between these to finish working on and sorting out their complex {{DPL|include}} examples. I had to do that only as a temporary adjustment, to be able to work in a sane way). I'm still working through some of the harder to test and untangle examples.
Cheers [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 21:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
==Taking more breaks==
I’m having problems with spasm, focus, and a number of other significant things. As there is no urgency for the resource (I asked CA in discord that there was “no urgency”, and this was indicated to be fine), I will need to do contributions at slower speed. Hobby (slow) is about all I can manage, but even doing things at that pace, I’m reminded I still routinely end up burnt out and not feeling well (as is the case atm). The good thing is, things are getting somewhat closer to being organized, working, and approaching ready, there’s just a bit more to go; so, I’ll try to finish the last section of my plan, I’ll just do that more spaced out and taking more breaks. I apologize for the length of time this is taking, and the need to take ''more'' time; I just can’t do normal-paced things due to my limitations. Sometimes I forget my limitations for a short while, until my body gives me a rather harsh reminder (it’s currently on strike XD). [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 21:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
: The other good thing is, most things that are not working are now marked as such here (the other things seem to be fixed and working well again, which is awesome), and the Gamepedia/Fandom DPL3 manual can be used in the meantime, as it is still the official manual on the [[mw:Extension:DynamicPageList3|extension page]] until this one is more ready. [[User:FrozenPlum|FrozenPlum]] ([[User talk:FrozenPlum|talk]]) 21:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
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